In this Marketing Over Coffee:
Pranav Yadav talks to us about his work at Neuro-Insight!

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Pranav Yadav is the US CEO of Neuro-Insight

Neuroscience, Neuromarketing and marketing to the subconscious

Getting storytelling and branding together

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Testing multiple concepts in the same cell. Not just for TV, also for digital.

Guiding principles and the cure for those suffering from conceptual closure.

Memory is king for predictive, diagnostic gets to the "Why?"

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Machine-Generated Transcript

Pranav Yadav 0:06

This is marketing over coffee with Christopher Penn and John Wall.

John Wall 0:14

Good morning, welcome to marketing over coffee.

I’m John Wall.

Today we are diving into neuroscience and neuro marketing.

Our guest is panov yet off, he’s going to be talking to us about his company, neuro insight and what they do they have a great list of clients.

Yeah, we’re going to talk about just applying technology that most people don’t get a chance to apply towards their marketing for now.

Thanks for joining us today.

Pranav Yadav 0:36

Such a pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

John Wall 0:38

Now, we need you to kind of get us to where we can get to neural marketing, obviously, neuroscience study of the brain and you guys have a bunch of methodologies that you use to apply neuroscience to marketing, but just kind of give us the tour.

What do you guys do?

Pranav Yadav 0:52

Sure.

I’ll start with the fundamental premise of why we exist and that is that 80 to 90% percent of your decision making or anybody else’s decision making takes place in the subconscious.

And the subconscious, by definition is below sub your conscious awareness.

So if I were to ask you a question about how do you feel and why do you wear the shirt that you’re wearing today? You would give me a perfectly rational answer.

Well, it was a hot summer day, and I want to do something light, etc, etc.

But the truth may be the last time you actually wore that shirt, it actually made you feel a certain way or you had a certain kind of day out, or you had a great interview with somebody.

And that’s how most of our decisions are made.

yet.

The $500 billion that are spent on advertising during the course of the year globally, is usually typically based on getting conscious response out of people.

You know, you’d come up with a new ad or a new product line and you get a bunch of people in the room.

Together, and you start asking them questions and suddenly people who don’t notice the nuance of advertising or marketing in any which way, become experts to you, and they begin to tell you hey, by the way, if you were to tilt your logo slightly to the right, I would like any better.

Or had you communicated this idea to me this particular way, I would have actually bought your product, which is, you know, an absolutely ridiculous construct.

But we’ve been doing it for so long.

People who are trained within the world of marketing and insight and research and consumer understanding, actually begin to believe that this is the actual truth.

Whereas anybody who comes from outside that industry will tell you that it’s an absolute fallacy.

So my company invented a certain kind of brain mapping technology that we use to figure out how people react in the moment, not after the effect in the moment in context to any kind of marketing communication.

messaging.

And looking at which parts of the brain light up as this communication is being received, we can begin to understand which part or which piece of the communication is something that is going into people’s long term memories, what is emotionally engaging what is personally relevant, and whether or not someone is likely to react to a certain kind of messaging or communication or not.

So that in a nutshell, is neuro marketing and what my company does,

John Wall 3:27

right.

And so this immediately brings to mind images of, you know, you’ve got racks of people wearing all kinds of sensors on their head, and you’re showing them commercials I mean, is this the kind of stuff that we’re talking about?

Pranav Yadav 3:38

We are talking about that though, I think your imagery of what a headset may look like and the actual headset may be slightly different, and the setting in which they’re watching it is also slightly different.

So one of the flaws with any kind of traditional way of measurement around creative or marketing was that people used to come into a room There should an ad, or a storyboard or an animatic.

without context and because no messaging in life is received without context, if you are to show it without context, it would be perceived very differently.

So, and actually granted no other neuro marketing company in the world does what we do, we actually go through a lot of pain to make sure that people wearing those headsets actually receive any kind of marketing or communication in the context in which it’s actually otherwise delivered.

Which means if we’re looking for a response to any kind of a TV commercial, even if it’s a 32nd TV commercial, we place it in the context of a 30 minute TV show, which has four ad breaks and 12 different ads.

And your ad is one of those ads.

And typically, that would be a TV show that you buy when you advertise so so we take a lot of pain to make sure that we get the context right.

But yes, in a nutshell, it is a bunch of people wearing headsets And reacting to any kind of stimulus on any kind of platform.

John Wall 5:03

Yeah, and that’s so and so it’s interesting to me on two fronts.

I mean, one is that studying human behavior, and you’ve already touched upon this is that so much of what we decide is irrational, even the stuff that we think is rational.

Usually when you dig in, yes, it’s the rational decision, but you actually made it for irrational reasons.

And then the other side of, you know, you may think you’re just kind of telling a story.

And like, again, like you mentioned, where people are telling you about it after the fact and giving you feedback, which may or may not even be real or appropriate, versus when you’re measuring that stuff, right, in context as it happens, and you could get completely different results.

So I give us you know, kind of a general lay of the land, you know, are most people just way off base, you know, when you come into measure this stuff is a totally different than reality, or what kind of insights Do you get out of this research?

Pranav Yadav 5:56

Sure.

I’ll give you you know, one fundamental point premise again to evaluate any kind of communication.

And then I will actually give you a couple of great examples of this.

So you are going to be talking about this conversation that we have today for a long time.

I know it purely because I’ve done it a few times.

But the only thing that will define whether or not you will talk about this tomorrow day after a week later or a year later, is whether or not what I say gets into your long term memory or not, unless and until something goes into your long term memory.

You don’t have that information tomorrow, day after or a year later.

And just by using that narrative tool of actually being able to predict your behavior in the future, I got your attention.

I got you, you know, this was personally irrelevant information.

And that very moment that I opened up for myself is what will go into your long term memory.

So so that’s a narrative tool.

I’ve just used to be able to do this with you.

Now in the case of any kind of Communication, whether it be a digital ad on Facebook or any other digital platform or on TV, you will have a story and you will have a certain kind of narrative structure.

And you know, in the traditional construct of a 32nd TV ad, you will have 27 seconds of storytelling and three seconds of branding.

Now, you could be highly engaged in those 27 seconds.

But if your three seconds of branding on our call to action are not going into your long term memory, then you’ve missed the mark and you’ve created just entertainment.

So and we’ve seen this over and over again and when we’ve done longer student studies, with, you know, with a bunch of our clients who actually give us access to, you know, single source data around sales, etc.

We can see up to an 86% correlation between sales and our metrics.

That means that we could have predicted how well a piece of communication is able to do in market before as Actually it goes out into market.

And one of the biggest reasons why we’re able to do that is because we’re the best measures of memory.

And we can pinpoint At what point in the communication, people were putting things into memory versus not.

And like I said, Unless and until you get the key messaging or branding or call to action into memory, you’ve created just entertainment.

Now, one of my favorite examples to use is Do you remember the Budweiser puppy commercial from a few years ago from the Superbowl? Sure, sure.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Commercial, right.

Like as a creative, it was a great story, very engaging.

In fact, if you look at the the ad meter was number one on the ad meter that year.

It will also want a bunch of awards.

It was incredibly popular.

It went viral, people were sharing it, the number on on YouTube, etc.

Were off the charts within the week of it coming out.

But the point was, and you have this statement from Anheuser Busch publicly available that saying that we’ve done these public commercials For a few years, but they don’t sell any beer.

And when we actually tested that commercial and we tested it, you know, the day that it came out what we saw, and we were very surprised, as to some of the press declaring it as an effective commercial, non effective commercial and a good creative are two very different things.

And ad and film are two different things.

And what this commercial was able to do, it had a very engaging narrative and storyline around the puppy being lost and the friendship between the puppy and the horse and the horses coming in to save, save the day and bringing the puppy back home.

Except by the time you got to the end branding.

By the time you actually got to the brand.

People already knew that the commercial was over, and their doorway to memory was shut.

So while people loved the creative, they did not take the branding with themselves.

So this would be a classic case of everybody sharing the ad and the brand thinking that this this has done particularly well.

But actually doing nothing for the actual sales of the brand.

John Wall 10:03

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Yeah, that’s very interesting, because there’s a couple different points of them.

This is something we see all the time with content where people create stuff that spreads and gets shared but just like you’re talking about, it doesn’t actually drive sales, you know, because there’s no real hook to the brand.

And then there’s also this idea of even if you do have a great story and there is a hook to the brand, and They kind of remember it, it still doesn’t mean that it’s going to drive sales immediately.

But perhaps, and actually, this is more of a question for you to kind of, do you see situations where there’s kind of a great ad and it does lay a hook for the brand.

So that maybe it assists recall, but it doesn’t drive sales.

But over the long run, it could help drive sales.

Is that a thing? Or is that just math? Sure.

Pranav Yadav 12:21

No, no, no, it’s it’s a thing.

It’s a thing purely because any season marketers such as yourself, if I were to ask you, how do you actually divide your advertising, we would actually divide it into two major categories.

In terms of well, this is an equity building ad.

Whereas this is an ad where I actually desire a certain kind of action.

This is a new product I’m launching or this is a new offer that’s out there, or I want them to go to this particular URL.

And in those cases, you know that ad like the meaning of the ad is to drive behavior whereas there are other ads where the whole point of getting the branding in there is to add Reinforce the values, the brand that you stand for.

And the story hopefully communicates those brand brand values that are strengthened through the course of this ad.

And then you’re basically hoping that I’ve strengthened the equity.

And over time as people continue with their daily lives and make choices, my brand will be top of mind as they do that, because it aligns with the values the consumer as well.

So it’s not a myth, it’s, you know, which is why when I walk into a room with a CMO, and when they tell me that this is what they’re trying to do, first thing I asked them is what are you trying to do with in terms of brand building equity building versus you know, getting an immediate action and and both those things are fair things to do.

It is about what you’re trying to do.

And we evaluate the ad accordingly,

John Wall 13:45

just to get an idea of the scope.

So obviously, you’re working with people that are creating television ads.

So this is not nominal purchase that people are throwing a lot of money at this especially because I imagine if they’re able to prove or significantly increase their results, they’re going to be saving Millions on the TV side? Is this normally kind of a fortune 5000 type project? Are those the kind of clients that you’re always working with?

Pranav Yadav 14:08

Yeah, mostly it does require, I mean, if you doing a bespoke study, like a one off study, then it does require a, you know, a certain kind of an investment but you know, you’d be surprised not that much greater than your traditional solution of what people have relied on in terms of a list link test or an IP source ASI.

So not that much more and, and at scale, probably even cheaper.

So, you know, if a big brand like Anheuser Busch, or a MasterCard or T Mobile start begins to put all of their advertising or all of their creative through this, then the cost effectiveness and the economies of scale kick in because what this allows one to do is actually look at multiple things at the same time.

So for example, because I’m using a 30 minute real, to test a 32nd TV ad what You could also do is, in addition to the finished 32nd ad, you could have an animatic of an ad that’s coming out in two months, you could have a storyboard, or a concept or idea that you are working on that six months out.

And you could throw in a competitor ad as well.

Well, if in the same cell, you’re able to test four or five pieces of stimuli, net net, what you’ve done is the cost per stimulus goes down significantly.

And like I said, oftentimes if you do it at scale, even lower than the traditional solution out there, so and I think that’s what our clients have come to understand, and that’s how we’re working with most of them right now.

That said, I must clarify that when we first started the company, the world was mostly TV.

So we started off in TV.

But again, this is one of the only neuro marketing solutions in the world that’s actually applied to digital as well, which is where Facebook is a client and Twitter is a client.

And we look at you know, every you know, digital platform out there, to be able to see how people react to any kind of stimulus or any kind of news platform as well, because at the end of the day, it is the brain reacting to a certain kind of stimulus.

And as long as we can get a realistic viewing, we can do that.

And for Facebook or Twitter, we actually go so far as to creating such a realistic situation that people are coming in and observing their own Facebook feed and then getting fed the ad that we need a reaction to within their own Facebook feed, which actually, you can imagine requires a lot of work.

But we do do that.

John Wall 16:27

Yeah.

And that’s it.

So now it makes a lot more sense.

Because I was thinking on the TV front of, you know, do you have clients that go back and rework the message and then line things up, and it just makes sense that they would run with animatics or storyboard something way cheaper, and then they could optimize it three, four rounds before they actually go live.

And then I also love that idea of, you know, having competition stuff in there so you can actually see toe to toe how stuff goes on the digital front.

Yeah, that’s, that’s great in that there’s so much more stuff you could do there.

And that’s actually less of a lift for the client to it’s so much easier for them to change their creative sense.

And to move stuff over? How about as far as general lessons that you kind of see your best practices and you know, even for someone that’s, you know, just a smaller company, you know, trying to get off the ground or whatever.

Do you see some rules or guidelines as far as what you should be doing with your ads to increase your odds of success?

Pranav Yadav 17:19

Yeah, again, I usually stay away from giving people a set of rules, because the problem with a set of rules is that they will always, always fail at certain point given the situation, which is why I love talking about principles because when you follow the principles, you’re less likely to fail, then when you blindly follow the rules, and so here, here are a few principles from me.

And one of these actually came up recently, a couple of weeks ago in Cannes, Gary Vaynerchuk, and I were talking to a bunch of CPG marketers, and I started the conversation with like, if I were to tell you how brilliant you know, some of us standing in front of you are And these are our five benefits of working with us right now.

How would you react, you probably think that I’m not a nice person.

And, you know, not someone you’d want to work with.

That said, I don’t know why, for the past 60 years, the way we’ve advertised the world is by doing exactly that.

You walk in declaring that I am this brand.

And these are my product benefits.

And even if I’m a soap, then that soap is the hero of the story and the hero of the entire communication in a way that you shouldn’t be thinking about anything.

But that so now that’s to me is an unnatural way to talk to anybody.

If you wouldn’t want me to talk to you like that, because what you want to do is first get to know me as a person, what I stand for, and then figured out what I can bring to the table and how I can help you be better at what you do.

Now, if all of our advertising or communication Before that, if it actually had, you know, this overused word of customer centricity in a while, I feel like some of these words lose meaning because they’re overused in our industry.

If you actually had the customer in mind, then your communication would actually be around the consumer, your communication would have the consumer as the star of the story, and your product would be an enabler of the consumer.

So for a small product coming into market, yes, you’re eager to basically flex your muscles and showcase to everybody that this is, you know, where I stand, and this is how I can change your life.

But I would actually take that time and maybe use you know, cheaper digital ways to create long longer form more engaging, branded videos where you can begin to develop a relationship with the end consumer and then oh, after they’re ready, after, they actually want to hear from you how you could change Their lives, then deliver that message.

So that’s one principle that I would stand for.

Another one I would just tactical one is, again for the past 60 years in the world of advertising, there seems to be this, this pattern or a formula that was invented by somebody that the ad will open, there will be a story and somehow branding will show up in the last three seconds.

But just before branding, the music will die down.

The story will be over we will take over the screen with a black, yellow orange or whatever our brand color is screen, and then I will place my brand.

And in a time when TV was new, in a time when people were actually sitting in front of the TV to watch a certain kind of programming, and they looked at ads as entertainment and content.

That may or may have been an okay technique to use.

But in today’s day and age, at a time when people are trying to avoid these ads where people are overwhelmed with content, the brain gets ticked off by Small things that you have overused for the past 4050 years just like that, if you tell me that the story is over and the music is going down and a red screen has come up, I’m for sure going to think that the ad is over.

And if you place your branding right there, there’s no chance in hell that I’m going to take it back in.

So that’s a tactical thing.

You know that a lot of people do get wrong when they create branded content or advertising purely because that’s just the way in the industry has worked for the past few years.

And you know, we don’t really challenge it or change it very much, but we must, because we’ve never seen it work.

In fact, like I would say, six out of 10 ads that I see suffer from what we call conceptual closure, where you know, the brands have given enough hints to somebody that the ad is coming to an end and that could be triggered by a car driving away into the horizon.

In the case of a car ad or an insurance ad, two men standing up and shaking hands with each other.

All of these are signals the brain uses to figure out that the story is come to an end.

John Wall 22:00

That’s amazing.

Yeah, that’s a great point.

We’ve talked with Ron floof, about storytelling.

And he always has an analogy that he uses if your product is, you know, the hero’s tool, your product is not the hero, you know, your product is Excalibur or Thor’s hammer, whatever you want to call it, but it’s all about the customer.

That’s the story.

So that that fits right in with that one thing that I wanted to hit upon.

So you’ve talked about how you’re able to measure if the memory peg has been kind of set, you know if it’s in there, but you also do measurement of things like engagement and emotional intensity.

Just talk about those things.

How do those affect results? And what else goes into that?

Pranav Yadav 22:37

Brilliant question.

So I always say our technology does three things, right? It’s predictive of how people will react in the market.

It’s diagnostic, to figure out what is it about this particular story or narrative that’s working or not working and what is the brand need to change to do better and then the last piece is the optimization piece, where we come in and actually edit the content for the brands to help them perform better.

So the memory piece is most important for the predictive part.

Because as we discussed earlier, if it doesn’t go into memory, you’re not going to get the desired behavior.

So memory basically is what goes into the predictive bot, then we get to the diagnostic part.

And this is where a lot of the magic happens.

Where while you know, memory is binary, it’s either in memory or it’s not in memory.

It doesn’t tell you why somebody thought it was important enough to put in memory or not put in memory, and that’s where the other metrics come in.

So, engagement, I know again, that’s another term that everybody in the industry uses and it means different things to everybody.

So I will define what it means to us.

Our measure of engagement measures the sense of personal relevance that you have with whatever content you are consuming.

So the engagement which is a level of personal relevance, emotional intensity is the amount of emotion that you feeling during that time.

And the third metric we measure is, you know, in scientific terms, it’s called approach withdrawal, or emotional valence, which is the positivity or the negativity of the emotional response that you’re feeling.

There are companies out there in the world, which who claim to measure love versus lust and things like that, which I think is absolutely absurd.

There is no part in the brain that that will allow you to tell which one’s what, but you can tell whether it’s a positive feeling or a negative feeling.

And with all of these three metrics, which are all measured at the same time, what we can begin to do is we can begin to decode why somebody thought it was important enough to put something into memory.

And, you know, in the case of you know, I’ll just because I’ve used this example, I’ll go back to the Budweiser puppy ad.

There’s this one distinct moment in the ad, where, you know, you see the memory in the right hemisphere of the brain peak Like in the 99th percentile of everything that we’ve tested.

And that’s the moment when the dog is lost in the woods and the music gets a little serious and the dogs in imminent threat.

And then the horses show up to save him, and you end the music like soars up right there.

And you see this huge peak in memory and coding.

And we see that it’s at that point where the emotional intensity is what has piqued because it is a moment where you’re scared for the little puppy to, you know, to be lost in the woods and being in grave danger.

And now, his friends have shown up to save the day, that basically allows us to explain or diagnose why that moment was decided by the brain to have been put into memory at such a strong level.

So that’s an example of how we use other metrics to actually decode behavior.

Now, it becomes very important not just for a finished creative, but for an animatic or just an idea set to be able to be evaluated.

So You know, if you’re launching a new product tomorrow, for example, 5g, as all of the companies in the world are trying to figure out, how do we talk about 5g to the world, then having a series of statements around, I’m looking forward to having 5g because it will make my business better.

I’m looking forward to 5g because it will allow me to have a seamless con video conversation with my mother who lives in a different part of the world, or so forth.

We can look at the personal relevance, and the emotional intensity and the likeability of any of these messages.

And once we do that, then we can begin to actually develop a strategy and craft a piece of communication around these things.

And that’s where all of these other metrics become handy as

John Wall 26:43

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So that’s interesting.

This can go back and even perhaps prove our irrational argument.

Do you see that the most successful stuff always has those emotional spikes? Or is it possible to have a successful ad that does have the engagement, but doesn’t have emotional intensity?

Pranav Yadav 28:21

Brilliant question.

Honestly, I wish everybody asked me this question, purely because otherwise I have to go do the job of some myth busting around traditional advertising.

I feel like someone in the 60s came up with this argument that emotional advertising works.

And the emotional advertising emotion is the only reason why advertising works.

And in this case, because again, we are on this ad, you see a lot of emotion, but it didn’t end up being a great ad, right.

So this already proves that emotion is not the determiner of effectiveness.

emotion is a key factor that does drive memory but emotion is not the determiner of the success of the ad.

The other thing is just to actually like spread the net a little wider.

Just think about it this way, right? Fantastic communicators have existed in the world.

People have like changed the world like the Gandhi’s and the Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela was the world have really created movements just with the power of their words.

But they’ve all been very different kinds of communicators.

And the way we perceive communication should actually just be evaluated on the merit of the kind of narrative that it is.

So again, not to go to answer your question.

In there are cases when emotion will drive effectiveness and memory.

And there are cases when just pure personal relevance and the validity of the argument that you’re giving to someone is going to drive memory and then then effectiveness.

So it can be either or it could be just pure, attractive.

givenness of what you’re seeing on screen, just the pure uniqueness of what you’re observing, that may end up driving driving behavior.

So there’s a variety of ways where you can engage the audience and, and communicate a certain way.

And all of those are valid.

There’s no one great way.

But the only thing that will eventually define the effectiveness something is whether any of these techniques is able to drive things enough into memory for you to then act and later.

John Wall 30:25

Right, right to have the hook.

So so the Budweiser example is a classic, where a lot of emotional engagement that doesn’t actually move the needle.

Do you have stuff that’s at the other end of the spectrum, like in direct marketing, a lot of times we’ve talked about how you have these incredibly boring ads that are actually very effective.

Do you see that ads that have little to no emotional impact, but actually do very well?

Pranav Yadav 30:49

Oh, yes.

I’m trying to think what would be a client who has, you know, we’ve publicly tested this for one example that again, like broke the needle for us.

Was Philips, they they came up with this ad called femme bot.

I don’t know if you’ve actually seen it.

It’s like a bot, female bot, who walks up to this guy who’s, you know, looking for a shave, and she has this electric razor that comes out of her hand and, and shaves.

And we saw just actually also said the the premise in this situation, the electric razor category was on a decline as a category.

And when this ad came out, we saw, again, a peak in memory at the point of call to action and messaging through the roof in like, again, in the 99th percentile of everything that we’ve seen, and we were like, wow, this is really going to be an effective one.

And, you know, there’s an actual case study published about this where this particular ad actually changed the entire trend in the industry, of electric raises and electric Shavers.

So, you know, we’ve seen you know, all kinds of Communication sometimes just as a relevant thing to the target audience that was able to drive behavior, and it doesn’t need to necessarily rely on any particular kind of storytelling.

John Wall 32:12

How about for the future of the space now to I mean, I imagine, you know, the devices that you use to measure this stuff, you know, technology is always moving forward.

And obviously, you’re getting better at just doing what you’re doing.

What do you see in the future of this space?

Pranav Yadav 32:25

Well, to be honest, so I’ve been doing this for nine years, right? And you can only imagine that creating change is is a hard thing.

What we have been successfully able to do over the past few years is challenged enough people and we’ve found enough great thinkers and leaders who have given us a chance and then you know, seeing the effectiveness of what we do in market.

I just think the first step for us, I would say in the next two to three years, is to make what we do, as commonplace as a traditional focus groups are a survey, like no idea, no animatic, no storyboard no ad, should we actually put out into the market, given the amount of dollars one spends on media, none of these things should be put out in the market without actually being greenlit by what we do.

So that’s, that’s step number one.

And I do think that this will become ubiquitous in the next couple of years.

And then the next step is to actually get to a deeper level of measurement.

And as we begin to get more data from more people, we will actually get predictive around behavior even sometimes without having to do look at a new group of people.

So think about it this way.

eye tracking when when it started, like, you know, you actually had to look at these cameras and have these devices then we switched over to the cameras and the laptops.

And we were able to then figure it out where people are looking at that point when the stimulus is presented.

But after looking at billions and trillions of data points What we’re now able to do with eye tracking in the world is we were able to predict where someone’s eyes were to look if they were to be presented with this kind of stimulus.

So a part of what we do, may go in that direction, as well as a lower, cheaper product for most people, for them to be able to use his use existing data to be able to tap into something.

And then the next stage is to actually, you know, like you said, the technology and the equipment is going to get to a certain size and and will become cheaper, and then it’ll be everywhere.

And we will constantly just be getting data from all sources.

And the point is to I mean, this advertising and marketing is great.

But at the end of the day, the larger picture is that all great invention and discovery within mankind has come from making your subconscious conscious.

And our purpose as a company is to actually allow people to be able to Do that, that’s when we can begin to define culture.

And we can begin to define change in the way that the society seeks, rather than, you know, relying on old myths, stories and rituals, and constantly being pulled back by the things that we’ve had in the past.

So the point is to actually evolve enough and grow enough to allow society to make their subconscious conscious and live their fullest lives.

John Wall 35:28

That’s great.

I’ll have links to neuro insight in the show notes, so you can check that out.

And of course, sign up for the marketing over coffee newsletter over at marketing over coffee.com powered by dot digital, and we can push these links out to you so you don’t have to write them down yourself as you’re driving in the car or working out or whatever else you’re doing was you’re listening to podcasts printed.

Thanks for joining us today.

Pranav Yadav 35:49

It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

John Wall 35:51

That’ll do it for this week.

So until next week, enjoy the coffee.

Pranav Yadav 35:55

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