In this Marketing Over Coffee:
Jane McCarthy Gives Us The Inside Story On Her New Book – Your Blueprint for Building an Abundant and Authentic Feminine Brand
Brought to you by our sponsor:NetSuite
Buy The Goddess Guide to Branding
Discovering the archetype is the unlock that guides the branding
Jungian wasn’t the exact fit
Founders often match the brand archetype
Adding Heart, Gift, and Style to the Brand
The dynamic peices of the style
9:25 – 11:08 NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR, into ONE platform, and ONE source of truth.
At the beginning – finding the energy the founders have, and the energy of the competitors
Liquid Death bringing Hades to the water market
Making a great resource that’s also cocktail table worthy
The brand is energy that people want to be around… or not
You can have masculine counterparts, but also duos
Lots of case studies with big brands
Jane’s Website and GoddessOffice.Substack.com
Sign up for the text line: 1-617-812-5494
Join John, Chris and Katie on threads, or on LinkedIn: Chris, John, and Katie
Sign up for the Marketing Over Coffee Newsletter to get early access!
Our theme song is Mellow G by Fonkmasters
Speaker 1 – 00:00
Today’s episode is brought to you by NetSuite and Wix Studio.
Speaker 2 – 00:10
This is Marketing Over Coffee with Christopher Penn and John Wall.
Speaker 1 – 00:18
Good morning. Welcome to Marketing Over Coffee. I’m John Wall. Jane McCarthy works with companies to define
their foundational brand strategy. Collaborating with entrepreneurs and marketing teams, she helps clarify brands
essential archetype, core motivation and intended customer impact. With Kate McAndrew, she’s written the Goddess
Guide to Branding, your blueprint for building an abundant and authentic feminine brand. It includes interviews with
more than 22 female founders and brand leaders. Jane, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3 – 00:46
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 – 00:48
Give us the basic pitch at the beginning here. Who are you and what do you do?
Speaker 3 – 00:52
I am a brand strategist. I have worked in advertising and marketing for my entire career. So over 15 years, through
my work with clients, I found that discovering your archetype is really an unlock for clarifying everything about your
brand and the personality of your brand and the meaning and intent. And I find that once you know, the archetype,
everything really falls into place. And it’s such a strong North Star to guide creative development. And so I really fell
in love with archetypes, but I was feeling unsatisfied with Carl Jung’s 12 key archetypes, which is common in our
space. We tend to look at the hero, the everyman, the innovator, the explorer, and those are really strong, and there’s
nothing wrong with using them. There’s also the caregiver and the lover in that common 12 that we often use in
marketing from Carl Jung.
Speaker 3 – 01:50
And I felt like there was an opportunity to go deeper and look at the archetypes from a feminine perspective. I hit
upon research by the young analyst Jean Shinoda Boland in her book Goddesses in Every Woman. And she mapped
the archetypes that are central in women’s psyches and women’s lives. And I realized that would just be an incredible
launch point for providing a new set of archetypes, lenses through which to look at the archetypes for branding. And
so that’s how I came to write the Goddess Guide to Branding with my sister, Kate McAndrew, who is a venture
capitalist, really passionate about funding female founders.
Speaker 1 – 02:34
Yeah, you’ve gone from, you know, the Jungian 12 as kind of the standard that is again, you know, used by everybody
that’s in this space and moving. What drove you to the goddess side of it? Were you working with feminine brands or
did you want to move over to feminine brands? Like, how did that start to come together?
Speaker 3 – 02:50
And at the time when this, my original insight came because this was, this has been a long developed marinated
project. It was the era of Dove’s campaign for real beauty. And if you can remember, Pantene Shine Strong. And there
was a deeper recognition that we, we had some stereotypical aspects of communications around women in the
branding space and companies that could get to deeper insights were resonating. And I think that the energy toward
rich archetypes for the feminine as opposed to stereotypes really got going in the aughts and it’s just continuing
forward. And so I think we are in a moment where young brands have popped up that are speaking to women in a
more resonant way. And I just saw the opportunity and I just wanted there to be another tool.
Speaker 3 – 03:51
Not that the young 12 is bad by any means, but I was dismayed by only seeing the lover and the caregiver as clearly
feminine archetypes. And so, and I felt we need more resources if we’re going to be marketers who can really reach
women. So that’s how I ended up focusing on this eight set of goddess archetypes.
Speaker 1 – 04:15
Right. How did that go? As you went, you know, did you pick those eight, you know, did you have kind of the
characteristics you wanted in mind that you’re matching up to the goddesses, or did you just go through the
goddesses and, you know, find out which ones matched what you were already working on? Like, how did that
process go?
Speaker 3 – 04:31
I started from the archetypal system and looked for brands that were doing a great job within each of those
energetic spaces. And interestingly, as I worked with my sister and we started interviewing various female founders
who were talking about their brands, and I thought they were doing an amazing job, I discovered that a lot of female
founders personally had a very similar archetype to the brand that they were creating with their company. And I think
that makes a lot of sense because when you’re heart led and you’re pursuing a passion that you see in the market,
often serving a customer who is similar to you, there can be symmetry between the founder energy and the founder
Persona and the archetype of the brand, which I.
Speaker 3 – 05:22
Which I think not, and it’s not always the case, but that is something that I discovered through this process that often
the women leaders happen to have a lot of resonance with the brand that they’ve created.
Speaker 1 – 05:35
That’s really interesting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too, because like you said, that goes back to kind of an
alignment of the why that you’ve got going, because when I was thinking about some of the brands that were in
there, you know, you look at Demeter and Oprah like, that’s a good match. And she obviously fits that. You know,
that’s like hand in hand with her and Hera, the regal. Right. Michelle Obama, that’s just. That’s right on the mark. So
talk to us more about that, too. We can jump over that because you’re, you know, the goddess is just part of it. You
mentioned heart. And you also have gift and style as things that make authentic feminine brands. So talk about the
rest of it that goes into the brand.
Speaker 3 – 06:10
Yeah, I love starting from a deep archetypal source, like the goddess energy of. You mentioned Demeter, the mother.
So everyone can connect with the energy of the mother. And when you are playing in that space, the mother is
abundant, the mother is warm, the mother is loving and caring and comforting. All of those things. So we know we
have a general idea of where this brand is going to play, but it’s a huge territory. And so then from there, we start to
get more specific to the purpose of this particular company and this brand. And that’s why I talk about the heart. And
so that is the classic raw passion that’s driving the energy of the brand or the business forward or Simon Sinek’s.
Why? What is motivating this brand? What is motive? Why. Why does this exist?
Speaker 3 – 07:03
And so that’s the heart to me, it’s the beating heart of the purpose of what you’re doing. And so you start with this
huge territory of, say, the mother energy and caring and warmth and compassion and love. But let’s get more
specific. Right? And this is how that very powerful big energy becomes something that is focused for a particular
brand. And then going deeper, I suggest thinking about the. What I call the gift. And so that is the emotional impact
you intend to make on the people you’re serving. When someone interacts with your brand in any way, how are you
changing their day, changing their year, you know, changing their relationship with something? What is that way that
you’re elevating their experience of life? And that’s the gift that I think about. And these things, all, we all want to be
aligned.
Speaker 3 – 07:54
So if we’re in the mother space archetypally, then the purpose is going to be connected to that, as is the gift. And
everything lines up. And then from there, once you. Those are all intentions. That’s just strategy words on a page. It
gets meaning when we think about how that’s lived. So that’s everything from the iconic elements of a brand, like the
logo, like the colors, like certain symbols that you use to gain memorability and recognition. Then there’s also what I
call the dynamic pieces of the style, which is the collaborations you’re doing, the promotions you’re running things
you’re doing, the experiential things that are unique in keeping the brand fresh. That’s dynamic and that’s all intended
to express the archetypal space, the heart of this brand and the, and have the impact that you’re intending to make.
Speaker 3 – 08:47
And so it all comes down to how you live it. Right. And that’s what I consider to be the style of the brand and I
consider that to be the essential blueprint that you come back to over and over again. And it starts from this very
deep place which is the archetype which resonates with everyone on the heart level and everyone can understand
because these are truths connected to the human experience and the meaning that we find here on earth.
Speaker 1 – 09:15
Yeah, there’s a lot more I want to talk to you about that as far as. Because that is the power of this is you’re tapping
into these archetypes which is something fundamental at the human core. But before we do that, we just have to
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Speaker 1 – 09:54
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Speaker 1 – 10:35
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machine learning at netsuite.com the guide is free to you at netsuite.com Coffee again n e t s u I t e.com c o f f e e
netsuite.com Coffee and we thank them for their support of the show. So a brand comes to you. How does this
normally work? Is it. Are you able to get the feel of the brand and match it up immediately with an archetype or is it
the kind of thing where they may be kind of floating around in few things and you need to get them to focus one?
Speaker 1 – 11:24
What’s the normal process when you start working with a brand?
Speaker 3 – 11:27
I always just want to get a sense of the feeling, especially if this is a founder led brand, what’s the energy of this
company and what are the energy of the founders? Who are they archetypally and what caused them to want to get
into this business? So I’m assessing kind of what’s going on authentically from the energy of the business and then
I’m interested in what are the other players in that market in the space, how are they communicating archetypally?
What are the archetypes that are present in this market? Because if you can find something that’s authentic to the
founders or the energy of the business and it’s differentiated on an archetypal level, that’s really interesting. That’s
something to possibly amplify. For example, let’s think about the water category. Nobody has an archetype that is
Hades, the mystery.
Speaker 3 – 12:33
That’s my God duality for Queen Persephone, the goddess of the underworld. So except liquid death came in and
brought Hades, the God of the underworld, to water. Okay, so that’s from Fiji water, which is very Venusian, that’s very
Venus. Or you have these very functional waters that are up in the rational Athena, scientific analytical archetype. But
death and water, that seems opposed. Right? It’s super unexpected. And so those guys who started that, I know the
guy who drew the like the can, he did the image on the can that was kind of this monstrous image. And so I kind of
know a little those just the energy of some of the people who are working on the inception of that brand and that’s
true to them.
Speaker 3 – 13:26
And this became a water that could look cool at a festival, you know, at a show where guys didn’t want to drink beer,
they’re drinking liquid death. But it was very unusual. So I think being true to the energy of the people who are in the
company, which is important, and then doing something unexpected like an archetype that hadn’t been seen in the
market, well, that’s like a, that’s a really nice blend and formula. And of course the next part of it is this going to
attract the customers that they’re going after? Is it going to attract water drinkers? And it has. They found their
market. Now some people would be, are going to be turned off by liquid death. It is unexpected and so, but they had
a market to serve people with that unexpected archetype.
Speaker 3 – 14:18
So that’s an example of where everything works really beautifully together, where it’s authentic, it’s differentiated and
it’s resonant with the people they’re trying to serve.
Speaker 1 – 14:29
Yeah, that’s a great example. I love that. And this goes to the book too. I mean, I have to tell you, I love the book. I got
a chance to dig into it and it’s, you’ve gone top shelf with this. You know, it’s hardcover, it’s full color inside, you’ve got
a lot of artwork in there. And yeah, I just got that feeling that a founder or somebody that’s starting out and trying to
get their strategy straight could go in here. And if they pick the right archetype, there’s a bunch of examples in there
of, okay, here’s how other brands do this. And here are the key drivers behind that archetype and it opens up doors
for you. I can just again, see this. When you’re doing strategic ad campaigns kind of are just going through the raw
checklist.
Speaker 1 – 15:06
But this can really move you in certain directions and get you to align. So do you find that when you’re talking with
clients, are they kind of like hitting on 3, 3 of 5 or are they just not even in the architect neighborhood? And this is
giving them a new map. Like what kind of experience have you had with it?
Speaker 3 – 15:22
Yeah, so I’ve worked with some founders of like mid sized companies, smaller entrepreneurs, and I just find that.
Exactly. It’s a doorway into an understanding of the meaning of the brand that can be hard to articulate. It’s hard to
articulate an energy. And that is what brands are. I mean, they are radiating an energy that people want to be around
or not. And it’s, it’s visceral. Okay. And you, and you achieve that through a bunch of different kind of elements from
color to the in store experience to the people who are representing the brand, if there’s a customer service
component, all these things. And so how is everyone going to come to something that they can understand? And
that’s why I love the archetype.
Speaker 3 – 16:14
Because, for example, I came to an archetype, I like to start with the goddesses, but then I come to something that I
think can be understood even if you don’t know that system. So for example, I think I did something like with
hometown hostess. And it’s like you kind of get who a hometown hostess is. You understand the warmth behind
that, you understand the salt of the earth nature behind that. You understand the hospitality. And so when we give a
character to our brand, then you can feel the energy. And that’s what I want with anyone who is ultimately going to
be. I’m not going to be around to help with all of the marketing campaigns year after year. And so we need the true
north that everyone can understand.
Speaker 3 – 17:02
And I do think it’s a deep unlock when you get to the heart and the soul or the soul character of the brand in a way
that anyone can understand because it’s archetypal, which is a universal language.
Speaker 1 – 17:17
Yeah, I didn’t notice you have male counterparts to all of them. Was that just a matter of you wanted to address the
other side of the market or is there anything different from the male side? And I mean, could you go in and just apply
this to predominantly male market, something that’s you wouldn’t normally see associated with the companies that
you’ve presented here?
Speaker 3 – 17:35
It was super important to me to include the masculine counterparts, for one thing, and I acknowledge this in the
book. You can have a duo, you can kind of have a masculine, feminine energy that’s blended in your brand. And we
had, there are so many examples of that. We have 16 in total. When you think about eight goddesses and eight God
counterparts and yeah, that was essential to me because otherwise I didn’t feel that the system would be complete.
Speaker 1 – 18:01
A bunch of interviews in the book, a lot of big brands in there, Nike and North Face among others. Any of those
interviews kind of open up new ideas or thoughts for you? Do you have any favorites out of the badge?
Speaker 3 – 18:14
Oh, I mean, every single one of them opened a new door. First of all, it was amazing to see the multiplicity and
tapestry of kinds of women doing really interesting brands in the market and everyone has their own journey, which I
love to hear just how distinct everyone’s experience is. One of the things that I loved the most in our conversations
was with the CEO and founder of co founder of Bobby, which is a baby formula which offers clean ingredients and a
more kind of European style formula that just wasn’t on the market in the US up until Bobby entering.
Speaker 3 – 18:59
And Laura talked in our interview about going to New York to meet with a branding design agency and they had
presented a bunch of directions for Bobbi and she was on the plane with someone she was working with and they
were like, you know what? I feel like these folks just didn’t nail it. I feel like we’re closer to this business and we’ve
been feeling it and we know the passion and it’s okay what they’ve done, but it doesn’t feel like it’s as strong as it
could be. And somehow they just started looking at things online and they found this line drawing of a cow and
they’re like, that’s it. And they bought it right then and there, licensed it, and then found their color which is Kelly
green. And they created their own logo which is on the can and it looks fantastic.
Speaker 3 – 19:48
And then one day Laura was on the back of a bank envelope, drew out this boobs to bottle logo which talked about
the journey of how women often are both breastfeeding and feeding with formul. And it’s not either or, it’s. The reality
is it’s a blend. And that was represented through that line drawing of boobs and bottles. And she just, she said in her
interview that everything that’s fundamental to the design of this brand and the end of this brand we created on the
back of an envelope ourselves. And so to me it was a wonderful reminder of human creativity and ingenuity. And
when you’re really living a brand and you’re in the business, never discount where a phenomen creative idea might
pop up out of nowhere from someone who isn’t the titled creative director.
Speaker 3 – 20:40
I think when you are living something, you may have incredible creative ideas and don’t discount them.
Speaker 1 – 20:46
Okay, so now that the book is out in the world, you’ve gone through this whole process. How are you thinking
differently about this than when you were at the start? What kinds of things are you looking at going forward in
applying this now that you’ve release this gigantic resource?
Speaker 3 – 21:02
Now I’m really interested in teaching women who have small businesses who may not have the funds to hire a
branding agency for six figures or what have you. And they need some strategic process themselves. So I just
launched a beta course with 11 women founders. We’re doing a six week journey where it’s kind of I’m going to take
them through building their own brand blueprint. And I just really want to empower women who may not, who may
be bootstrapping to get to a core brand strategy that can guide them forward and that they can understand the
meaning of their brand and not get lost in kind of industry jargon. So I try to really bring my concepts down to easy to
understand, fun to work with, exercises and ideas that feel accessible to everyone, not just to MBAs or seasoned
marketing professionals.
Speaker 3 – 22:06
And I really believe in that.
Speaker 1 – 22:08
That’s great. And so if people want to learn more about this process or get you involved, what’s the best way to do
that?
Speaker 3 – 22:14
I am I have a substack, goddess office.substack.com well, where I’m serving up inspiration for working with purpose
and style. My website is goddess office.com I’m on LinkedIn. You can find me there. Jane McCarthy yeah, I love to
I’m always curious to meet people who are thinking about how to work with archetypes because it’s my deep
passion.
Speaker 1 – 22:38
All right, that sounds good. Again, the book is the Goddess Guide to Branding. We will have links to it in the show
notes so you can check it out. And of course we’ll push links on the newsletter. You can always sign up for the
Marketing Over Coffee text line at 617-812-5494. But Jane, that’s going to do it for us today. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 – 22:54
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 – 22:56
All right, that’ll do it for this week. So until next week, enjoy the coffee.
Speaker 2 – 23:00
You’ve been listening to Marketing Over Coffee Christopher Penn blogs@christopherspenn.com Read more from
John J. Wall at jw5150.com the marketing over Coffee theme song is called Mellow G by Funk Masters and you can
find it at Musically from Mevio or follow the link in our show notes.
