In this Marketing Over Coffee:
Ann Handley stops in to talk about the new edition of her book Everybody Writes!
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We learn all about the completely revised Everybody Writes!
What’s been going on at the Market Basket over the past 4 years?
Email Newsletters as a major outlet for business writing – Check out Total Annarchy
How Ann’s voice has changed since the first edition
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Your Writing GPS
Avoiding Hot Dog Writing
The 20 Things Marketers Write
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Ditching the readability scores
Writing keynote descriptions
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Machine Generated Transcript
What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode.
Unknown Speaker 0:06
This is marketing over coffee with Christopher Penn and John Wall.
John Wall 0:14
Welcome to marketing over coffee.
I’m John Wall.
We are here with Ann Handley.
She’s already getting a kick that I was just rolling the theme song there, which is it’s very, very groovy.
Is that your voice? No, it’s not.
No, we have this.
Unknown Speaker 0:29
Is it AI?
John Wall 0:30
It’s an AI British accent is a little bit, you know, not not for play.
But it’s so good to see you.
Because this is I feel like I should be doing a home up it.
Finally, I feel that way,
Ann Handley 0:41
I haven’t literally seen your face.
And I don’t know how long and we live in the same state.
I mean, at different ends, but still,
John Wall 0:47
well, it’s one of those things where normally we would see each other like three times a year, you know, we would be at these things, and we just run into each other.
And thanks to COVID it’s been, I don’t know, your daughter probably has like five kids now.
Right? I mean, this has totally been a million years.
Ann Handley 1:03
No, she doesn’t have five kids.
She does not have any kids.
But yeah, it’s Yeah, has been quite a while I was trying to think of last time I saw you might have been 2018 When we’re still in Boston,
John Wall 1:14
the one in San Francisco where there was the strike and all that stuff.
That was awesome.
Ann Handley 1:18
Okay, that was 2018.
That is literally crazy.
John Wall 1:23
So how are you doing? Let’s start with that.
Just so you know how the last three years gone? And how are you doing?
Ann Handley 1:30
This reminds me of like, Do you ever go into like I live right now about five miles from where I grew up.
So every once in a while, I’ll be at like the local market basket, as we call it here in the greater Boston area.
And I’ll I’ll pass somebody and I think I think I went to high school with her.
And then on the next dial that she recognizes me, and she’s like, Oh, wow, like, what do you been up to? I mean, like in 30 years? It’s a little bit like this question.
I mean, a lot and nothing, you know, at the same time, I’m still here in my tiny house, Still.
Still loving what I do still talking to you.
And so we’re in suits.
John Wall 2:11
There’s probably of the you know, 1000s that listen, there’s like for people who don’t know who you are, but just in case, and Handley is Chief Content Officer of marketing profs, so she has been in the industry.
And her book, everybody writes is the Bible for marketing, writing.
I mean, the thing is just, there’s so much that’s in this book that’s fantastic and actionable.
It’s basically unlike all these other marketing books that suck.
So I am just thrilled to have you on now the new version is coming out.
That’s why we’re talking because you’ve got the B2B event coming up in a couple weeks in this new addition is going to drop.
So yeah, talking about the new book, I mean, we’re on the same page in that like, writing a book is so painful.
So how did you get your arm twisted into doing an update?
Ann Handley 2:52
Yeah, so So first of all, let me show you a visual.
So this is the old one, which you so generously, talked about a second ago, this is the old one came out in 2014, I was just, I had to almost have a look at the copyright.
So eight years ago, so eight years ago, and as you generously called it, it is you know, the, the Bible, I guess, it’s, you know, still a best seller still sells a lot of copies.
But there’s some things in here that I was like, there’s some things in here that kind of need updating, so maybe I should just fresh in some of the examples.
And I thought of it as the equivalent to like doing a second edition, I thought was the equivalent to, you know, plumping up some, like throw pillows around the place, you know, maybe running a vacuum spritzing some for breeze, like I thought it would be relatively easy.
And then when I got into it, though, I started reading it, rereading it and thinking about what I needed to change.
And I realized just how much of this has evolved.
Number one, you know, I think that writing has evolved over the past eight years.
In our as communicators, we are charged with writing different things, number one, but also the way that we write is actually very different than it was eight years ago.
That’s the first thing that struck me.
The second thing that struck me is my voice is so different in this version than it is today.
So my own evolution as a writer has definitely shifted over the past eight years.
And the third thing that changed was that I felt like there’s a lot of things that I gave sort of short shrift to in the book.
I talked very briefly about email, for example, I didn’t talk about email newsletters at all, I am so passionate about an email newsletter but I didn’t even talk about it in this edition at all.
I talked about direct response email, and even that was you know, not quite as in depth as I believe in now where I’d like it to go now.
And so you know, some of the tools and the ways that we show up as writers and as communicators have have definitely shifted and so I realized you know what, this is not not going to be a plump the pillow, like run the vacuum spray the breeze situation this is going to be I’m going to take it down to the studs, you know, and I’m going to rebuild it from the ground floor up.
So I literally got all the old files and rewrote every single page.
Now, some of the chapter headings are similar, but when you read, like if you did a compare and contrast between the new version and the old version, it’s like it just sounds very different.
And the tone is different.
And what I talk about is definitely, I talk about it at a deeper level.
And I think it’s much more useful for marketers, it’s much more actionable.
So that’s kind of what it is.
And as we’re joking at the beginning, too, so this is the first is the new edition.
Some fantastic you can already tell it’s fun.
Look at the face.
John Wall 5:47
got the smiley face.
Yeah, one it says it’s you’ve got the starburst.
10 person funnier.
Ann Handley 5:51
Yeah, I tried to undersell that, but I think it’s at least like 30% funnier, but
John Wall 5:56
oh, yeah, cuz that was my first that was like, Oh, come on.
This is at least 2525 Yeah, I went 30
Ann Handley 6:00
But as we’re joking about, like it’s thicker.
So you know, for nothing else,
Unknown Speaker 6:07
you get more more,
Ann Handley 6:08
it’s a thicker book.
That’s like, what’s different about it? There’s more of it.
John Wall 6:12
everything you want out of this book? Well, it’s funny that you said that your voice changed, though.
Because I mean, we’ll talk about the content changing, because there’s some cool stuff that you’ve changed in there.
But what about your voices at that net? Like, how are you a different writer than you were when you did the first one?
Ann Handley 6:26
Yeah, it’s funny, because I was not even aware of it until I went back and read it.
And my careful reading of the first edition was sparked in part by a Amazon review that one of that somebody left on the on the first edition on the original edition of the book.
And the Amazon reviewer said that, you know, yeah, the book is okay.
He gave it three stars.
First of all, which I was like, the heck, like those people were three stars.
And so I’m reading the book, and I mean, reading his review.
And he says, you know, it’s okay, it’s kind of useful.
But he said that he is a subscriber to my personal newsletter, right at at Ann handley.com.
And he said that he was expecting that it would show more of my personality, like the way that my newsletter does.
And that it would be, you know, more fun to read is basically what he said.
And when I thought about that, comments, like, first I was a little bit like, oh, well, what are you talking about? He thinks it’s a little bit like buttoned up, he said, buttoned up and boring.
He said, boring.
And I was like, How can you say that? I was so incensed.
But like John, you know, when you hear criticism that, you know, is just a little bit true.
John Wall 7:40
Right? That’s why it hurts so much.
You know, it’s there’s
Ann Handley 7:43
And so I thought, You know what? He was right.
And so I, then I started really looking at the book a lot more critically.
And so, you know, my voice has evolved over the past eight years since the first edition to be a whole lot more, I think, looser, fun to read accessible.
When I went back and read the first edition, which it was a surprise to me to see how, how really buttoned up I was and how very often I was quoting other writers, you know, I’m quoting Neil Gaiman.
I’m quoting eBay, and I’m quoting, just, you know, so many writers who I like and admire, almost as a way though, to rather than complement what I was saying, to almost say, like, see, this is what Neil Gaiman says.
So obviously, that’s true.
Like, I think there was a slight, not insecurity, but almost a, an approach that I was taking where I felt like I wanted to be externally validated.
And now I think I’ve really stepped into understanding what it takes to communicate effectively.
And to write in a way that’s engaging, because I have been publishing my newsletter on a regular basis, because I’ve been showing up a little bit differently on social channels.
Essentially, what I’m saying is I’ve let more of myself out, which is really the key right to engaging writing is to really show up as yourself.
And so once I realized that, and once I literally saw it on the page with the old edition, I thought I can, I can do this much better, you know, I can be much more like holy myself in a way that will allow me to write in a more engaging way for the people I want to speak to, and I want to encourage to
John Wall 9:22
be better writers.
Yeah, you’ve just written so much.
It’s been years.
I mean, you’ve done a million words since then.
And so that that shows in where you’re at now.
And of course, another place that great writing shines is in direct mail is direct mail in your marketing toolbox.
Did you know that up to 90% of direct mail gets opened as compared to only 20 to 30% of emails, according to the data and Marketing Association? Yeah, I don’t know.
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Yeah, so one thing I noticed a big changes in was the writing GPS frame, you actually have a whole diagram in there, and you’ve really, I don’t know, it’s got that real consultant feel intuitive, like, oh, look, here’s my chart, this is how this thing works.
You know, it’s not just a list of stuff, but tell us about that, and having a you know, a framework for it.
Ann Handley 11:20
Yeah, that’s funny, you know, I, you’re right, I think that I wanted to provide more utility for readers.
And I did talk about following a riding GPS, you know, just like you were would plug in the coordinates of a of a place you want to go in your vehicle to make sure you actually get there, you know, quickly and on and on time and all of that I wanted to offer that same sort of framework for writing.
And in part, I did that.
Because in my conversations with marketers, and writers, you know, since the first edition of the book, people still struggle with, you know, well, where do I start, I don’t know how to begin, I just don’t know how to start a piece.
And so I tried to get them to the point where they would see, okay, this is where we begin, we begin at step one.
And what that writing GPS evolved to was, yes, in part, some like steps to take along the way, but also a little bit of the emotional component of writing.
So for example, you know, one of the steps is to forgive yourself, but is that actually a step? Like, do you actually do that? Well, yes, but really what it is, it’s, it’s an emotional adjustment that you make, like, you know, what, that wasn’t exactly what I wanted.
But, you know, here’s what I can take away from it.
And I can do better next time.
Another sort of step in that process is recognize the joy of writing, because I think that, very often we forget about that piece of it, like it’s so you should feel proud of, of what you’ve created, which feel proud of yourself, just that you’ve done it, you know, and so I want to create more of that sense of, of joy and accomplishment with every piece of content that you’re creating with everything you write.
And so are those actual like, steps? Is that like a box to check? I mean, not really, but they are very much steps that I take in my own process.
And so that’s basically what I wanted to do is give people some guidelines around how do we actually think about, you know, sitting down to write, and what are the ways to approach it to make it feel more accessible? Because like, that’s the thing, John, like, in this entire book, I want it to feel accessible, like I want people to go, yes, you know what, I can do that I want to empower marketers, and I want to completely dispel once and for all this notion that we are not writers, like and I still hear that all the time, too.
I’m not a writer.
It’s like, Dude, you’re a writer, if you’re in marketing, you are a writer.
So So yeah, that’s that’s kind of the the idea behind offering a framework.
John Wall 13:46
And I love how you have their steps in there that must be done.
And then there’s additional steps, if you want to take it further, you kind of you know, you’re giving him.
So what is that basically, like, if you have to do a blog post, today, you’re going to do the bare bones.
But when you’re writing your book, or something more important, you’d go the rest of the distance with that? Um, yeah, I
Ann Handley 14:05
think it’s open to interpretation.
The reason why I have some that are must dues is because I think there’s a lot of us who already do those, especially if you are in content marketing, if you are creating content on a consistent basis, you probably already do a version of that.
And, you know, the title of the book is, you know, ridiculously good content.
And so I wanted to make sure that if you want to be ridiculously good, then these are the extra steps to take.
And again, some of those steps are there.
They’re not hard, right? It’s, it’s all meant to be very accessible.
But it’s, it’s a signal that here’s where you might want to pay a little bit more attention.
You know, so just to give you a really specific example, most content creators are I know, who are creating content on behalf of accompany or who are freelance writers will do a first draft and then they’ll do a second draft, right.
So that’s a sort of basic thing that most of us do.
But I think the most Magic is in when you go beyond a second draft when you think about a third or even a fourth draft, and I’m very intentional about well, this is what a third draft actually is.
And this is what a fourth draft actually is.
So in some cases, like if you’re just starting out, or if you are what I would call like, an adult onset writer, like if you’ve suffered some trauma in the past around writing, and you just like, you just want to, you want to do better, but you need like the baby step version, then don’t worry about three and four, just do one and two, like, you’re good.
But if you also want to level up your game, if you want to create ridiculously good writing, then you know, you should embrace those, those extra steps as well.
Mostly, what I’m trying to do is give people some pathways to level up when and when they’re ready.
And if they want to.
John Wall 15:48
Yeah, and there’s like talking about the multiple drafts like I love how you have humor on the rewrite, like that’s fourth draft type stuff, like that’s so great that because people try to be funny, and it’s just a train wreck.
So like putting that further down the pipe makes it work better.
And the other one that always makes me laugh is hot dog writing, you know, you talk about writing by committee or by board or whatever, but just your hot dog really gets that across.
Like you’re gonna have this mystery writing that is just filled with unknowns.
Ann Handley 16:14
who knows what’s inside it? Yeah, yeah, we see that a lot at you know it with with bigger companies, right? Where you have lots of stakeholders who have an opinion about the way that’s that’s something you should, should sound.
And so yeah, I think writing writing by committee is hot dog writing, right? It’s when you’ve got lots of voices in there and what’s extruded out at the end, like, you know, I picture like a meat grinder.
What’s extruded out is just, it’s just unrecognizable, from what went into it.
John Wall 16:46
And now a huge part of the book is the 20 things marketers right.
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And of course, you I do have to mention you in the book, you talk with Jason Miller, who had had been at LinkedIn for a number of years.
And he talks clearly about, you know, writing for LinkedIn, here’s what you’ve got to do.
Ann Handley 18:10
Yeah, I also talk about LinkedIn newsletters, by the way, I don’t know if he got to that chapter yet.
But when I talk about email newsletters, I talked about the difference or the opportunity that I see between, you know, growing your own email newsletter, but then also thinking about LinkedIn newsletters, one of the points that I make in the book, and this is not a pitch for LinkedIn by any stretch, although I guess it’s kind of sounding like it is that you know, LinkedIn is just there’s a lot going on there.
And so I tried to talk about it from a writing standpoint, from a from a marketing writing standpoint, you know, here’s what you absolutely should be doing.
And here’s some other opportunities that also exist, such as the LinkedIn newsletter.
John Wall 18:48
Yeah, so Well, let’s talk about this.
You’ve got the 20 things, marketers right now, I noticed that was up from 17.
In the last edition, there’s more stuff in there.
But this is just great, because it’s for people that are doing a lot of marketing, writing.
It’s just concrete examples of okay, here’s the things that marketers most often write, here’s how you do them.
You’ve got your examples.
You’ve got drafts.
So what else went into the new version of this? Like, where were you going with it?
Ann Handley 19:10
Yeah, I actually got a fair amount from from that section in the in the first edition, it’s it’s actually 13 Things marketers, right.
So yes, I added to it, but I also took some things away.
I had a whole chapter in the first edition about choosing stock photos and not to make stock photos look like stock photos.
And I just thought, you know what, that’s kind of a mismatch for this book.
I don’t know.
I put that in the first edition.
I must have been inspired in some way but I don’t know.
2014 and was like, Yeah, I just distanced myself from her.
So yeah, I got rid of that.
I also had a whole thing about readability statistics.
And essentially, I just thought it was such a it was all about Flesch-Kincaid.
A little bit bit of background on Rudall fly.
She was one of the CO conspirators around the Flesch-Kincaid index, which is a well known readability index.
Honestly, John, it was like the most boring thing I couldn’t even like, get through it.
I was like, Oh, so this, that was my, that was my measure.
That was my metric.
I thought, Alright, if I read it, and I think this is boring, then it goes, because if I think it’s boring, then you’re gonna think it’s boring.
And every single reader on the planet, every marketer is going to, is going to think it’s boring.
There’s some great writing advice around, you know, how do you edit a work? Well, you just cut the parts that people tend to skip, you know, and I cut everything that I felt like people tend to skip, including the readability stuff, it was just really boring.
I did include a little bit of like readability resources at the end, but they get literally like one or two lines, and that’s about it.
But in terms of what made the cut, and what didn’t, I know, just from talking to marketers every single day of my life, that you know, what they’re tasked with writing.
And so there’s some things in the second edition that weren’t in the first edition, like, for example, many marketers that I talked to, are charged with writing a speech description, for example, for an executive or maybe for themselves to present at a conference, whether internal or external.
And that’s something that like, was not in the first edition, it wasn’t even really on my radar.
But that’s, that’s like something that marketers or, or sometimes more calm, is charged with, you know, getting executives or getting other marketers or getting themselves speaking gigs.
And so if that is something that is part of your marketing plan, marketing program, and I know it certainly is for all of you at Trust Insights, then how do you actually inspire it to be accepted? Right? How do you how do you make sure that you’re connecting with that conference organizer, and that they’re like, wow, we really need this one.
And so that’s an example of something that’s in the new addition, that wasn’t in the in the last one, I talked about writing a sales letter, which is a little bit maybe outside of marketing’s purview.
But on the other hand, you know, if you’re in marketing, you’re you’re also you’re also selling and so I think that that there’s some things in there that I think are 100% applicable to to marketers, as well, I mentioned the email piece of it, the email chapter was one tiny little skinny chapter that I basically like whipped my way through the first time.
This time I blew it up, I talked about why you need an email newsletter, and how important it is to a modern marketing strategy.
I talked about how to create one that people actually can’t wait to open.
And that I also talked about writing direct response email, which I think is different from an unpleasant approach from writing an email newsletter, you know, direct response, you want to inspire a click or an action of some kind.
Whereas with an email newsletter, you want to create that connection over time, right? So be useful to somebody over time and, and nurture them as part of your business.
And so yeah, there’s a couple of examples of things.
And again, it mostly just came from what marketers tell me, and what kind of feedback I get, again, from the newsletter, can you help me with this problem? That’s actually where hotdog messaging came from.
Because I heard from somebody who said, I think I’d tell the story in the book, too.
I heard from somebody who said that he was challenged with even writing a single tweet, because four or five people had to weigh in on it.
And I was like, ah, like, it’s like, that’s so relatable.
John Wall 23:26
Yeah, that’s a circle of hell.
I mean, we’ve all been there.
And we’ll do anything to not have to go there.
So you’ve got the book going, and you’re going to drop the book that will be for the B2B event marketing process.
B2B is coming up in a couple of weeks.
I mean, I’m almost afraid to ask because this is like hair on fire time, you’re two weeks out from the event.
I mean, I’m thankful you were just able to squeeze me in here.
But what’s going on? What are you excited for? And what’s the story with that?
Ann Handley 23:49
Oh, my goodness, um, I’m honestly excited just to be back at the B2B forum in person, we have not been together as a community as a community of B2B marketers, since 2019.
So our last event was in Washington, DC in the fall of 2019.
We were supposed to get together in the fall of 2020, which obviously didn’t happen for, for obvious reasons.
In 2021, we made the really difficult decision to not meet in person because at the time where and anybody here who is involved with events knows at the time that we had to make the call.
It was very early in 2021.
And we just, you know, we just didn’t know where things were gonna go.
So we made the decision to not meet in person that year into just hold a virtual event.
So we did virtual and 2020, virtual and 2021.
And then we thought, all right, it’s time.
So here we are back in Boston in our hometown, which I’m very excited about.
And also just very excited that you know, I get to see people I get to see you and just all the other speakers and attendees and teammates.
like I haven’t seen a lot of my colleagues in a very long time.
So yeah, so I’m very excited about that.
John Wall 25:05
All right, that sounds good.
Yeah, we’ve got links to the book.
You can go grab a pre order right now.
And that’ll be out.
Within a couple of weeks.
I’ll have links to the show.
You can go check that out.
Because Chris, I Katie, we will all be down there.
Carrie, go go.
And we’ll be there.
Also, if you follow the podcast she does with Katie.
How about what else is going on with anything else? We’ve talked about business here.
So over the past couple of months and through COVID and all that stuff, any books entertainment, I noticed AFC Richmond is in the book.
I had a huge yeah, here for that.
Ann Handley 25:37
yeah, oh my god, I love how closely you read it.
That actually means a lot to me.
And that is such a good show is not just the best show.
John Wall 25:45
It’s kind of embarrassing.
The number of times I’ve watched it like I want admit, yeah, we just were in a loop of, you know, I would sit down and I would say, okay, I can watch TED last Oh, and know I’m going to feel good.
Or I could roll the dice on something.
And I was like, well, I’ll just watch TED last.
So again, and yeah, that shows just killed him.
Yeah, I’m just so excited for season three.
Ann Handley 26:05
When does it come out? Do you know,
John Wall 26:07
from what I’ve heard, they’re pretty much they may be completed shooting, but they’re still editing and they’re kind of not promising anything.
And I haven’t seen any trailer.
So you know, if they were if they followed the schedule, it should be in a month or two.
But maybe it’s, you know, I don’t care.
I could wait another year as long as it comes out.
And it’s what they want it to be.
I’m going to be thrilled.
Ann Handley 26:26
yeah, that’s a good attitude.
Yeah, I I’m a massive Ted last a fan as well.
I’ve got a TED less a mustache somewhere.
The backhoe? It’s around here.
You know what I should have just shown up? That would have been fantastic.
Yeah, I have a visor and the glasses and the mustache.
It’s so funny that you said that you could watch like something else.
Or you could like do your comfort.
Hulu, right of Ted last.
Oh, and I feel that way about shits Creek.
I can watch like something that’s going to be challenging for me.
But sometimes, you know, at the end of the day, I’m just like, I just have like 45 minutes to unwind.
And I just want to watch a couple of shits Creek episodes.
And you know, and just and just laugh and like, feel happy.
And that was very much my mindset, especially during COVID During 2020 it’s just yeah, that was that was kind of my my comfort, comfort TV at the time comfort Netflix, I guess at the time.
I don’t know what else is going on.
I have a dog.
You’re gonna meet the you’re gonna meet Auggie at the B2B forum in Boston because it is a dog friendly Hotel.
chosen by the full intention on my part.
So yeah, so he will be there doing a meet and greet.
I know he’ll definitely be there.
I can get them to do a meet and greet.
I’m still in negotiations with his people.
His PR team.
Oh my god.
John Wall 27:51
You have to work your way through.
I’ll shoot for Instagram, man.
I gotta get an Instagram with a dog.
The dog pics just kill.
There’s no denying
Ann Handley 28:01
I think he’s new.
He’s actually too.
So he’s not that new.
But he’s new since you and I chatted so
John Wall 28:08
well, Trust Insights.
We’re all dog people.
Anyone that’s owned a dog that has had a scooter for the dog.
That’s just like, starting to tear up already.
Ann Handley 28:16
no, my poor Simon.
Yeah, I know.
I lost my beloved Cavalier King Charles Spaniel named Abby in April of 2022.
And I thought, you know, what? I can’t online is going to take a break.
I’ve had dogs for, I don’t know, 25 years, something like that.
And, you know, since I was a kid, really, I thought, I’m just gonna like, take a break.
And maybe you just have the flexibility to do whatever I want to do for a little bit.
But of course, this was 2020.
We’re not doing anything.
So I lasted about four months.
And I was like, That’s it.
I can’t take it anymore.
John Wall 28:47
Four months is good.
You made it a while.
Ann Handley 28:50
There was a weird psychological thing where I felt like it was just loyal to her.
I don’t know if you’ve ever lost a dog that you’re like, truly felt connected to then it was, you know, anyway.
John Wall 29:01
No, I totally know what you’re talking about.
We, you know, there were names that couldn’t be chosen for the next dog because it was too close to the first one.
It would be an affront.
Yes, I was gonna name my daughter after the dog but currently would not but she was like, No, absolutely not.
Ann Handley 29:17
Oh my gosh, I love that.
My brother does he he names his dogs.
He just gives them the same name.
So he’s had like, Gracie, he’s had Gracie too.
And he’s got Gracie through.
It’s just hotswap you just completely Yeah, it’s just you know, kind of works because you know, anything monogram does just kind of rolls to the next one.
He has chihuahuas, so they all have the same name.
It’s really some use,
John Wall 29:39
but I wonder if you’re like, oh, yeah, that was Gracie three, you know, like, you know, or is it now? Just like all one dog.
You know, there’s like no difference between it.
Ann Handley 29:48
I don’t know.
I mean, they’re not like cloned or anything.
It’s not like Barbra Streisand with her dogs, you know, so I don’t know.
John Wall 29:56
Well, we’re tackling the important issues here.
I think we can I definitely see we are going to be at B2B.
So come say hello, get an Instagram with us in the dog.
I’ve got links to the book to the show, and sign up for our total anarchy and email newsletter.
If you want to sign up the marketing over coffee text line.
That’s going to do it for this week.
And thank you so much for joining us.
Ann Handley 30:20
It was so nice to talk to you.
John Wall 30:22
do it for this week.
So until next week, enjoy the coffee.
Unknown Speaker 30:26
listening to marketing over coffee.
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