In this Marketing Over Coffee:
Author Jason Keath talks with us about his new book on how to get more effective in being creative!
Why is one of the best known social media strategists writing a book on creativity?
How to be more creative is not part of the standard academic tracks for artists, this is a huge gap.
Where did brainstorming come from?
Using interventions to make creativity an active process, not passive.
Happy collisions – when your expertise brushes up against life. This explains the power of cities.
8:36 – 10:16 NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR, into ONE platform, and ONE source of truth.
Categories of constraints
Michelangelo pushing through constraints to sculpt David
Incubation and incubation are critical
Group to solo ideation and back
MacGyvering it
Buy The Case for More Bad Ideas
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Speaker 1 – 00:00
Today’s episode is brought to you by NetSuite and Wix Studio.
Speaker 2 – 00:10
This is Marketing Over Coffee with Christopher Penn and John Wall.
Speaker 1 – 00:18
Good morning. Welcome to Marketing Over Coffee. I’m John Wall. Today our guest is Jason Keith. He’s been on the
show before. He’s the co founder of Social Fresh, which is a digital agency and it’s an event probably when of the
best regarded events in the entire space. Folks just know that when they’re with Social Fresh they’re going to go to
the show and get the best take on what’s going on and where things are going. But yeah, something new. He’s got a
book for us. The Case for More Bad Ideas. The Counterintuitive Guide to Creativity. Jason, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 – 00:47
Thanks, John. It’s so great to be on the show again. I have so much respect for you and Chris keeping this behemoth
running for so long at such high quality.
Speaker 1 – 00:56
Thank you. Yes, yes. We continue to run and go. So the big question is, what drove you to write a book? It’s, you
know, tremendous lift and takes a million hours, but why did you want to go down this road?
Speaker 2 – 01:08
It’s funny, I’ve been asked by publishers to write a book on social media for, you know, going back 15, 20 years and it
just never was, it was never in my bones to do that. I don’t know, like social media is very fleeting and I, if I’m going to
write a book, I want something that’s going to be just as relevant 20, 30, 40 years from now as it is today. And my
partner Nicole actually recommended maybe you should write a book on creativity. This was probably 12 years ago
and so I just started putting ideas down on the page and I mean the first thing I did is I zeroed in on this concept of
bad ideas that I’ve always used in my own creative process, personal creative process. And I started researching
creativity more.
Speaker 2 – 01:48
I’ve been researching and studying the science of creativity and different friends and kind of ad execs strategies of
how they do creativity probably for 20 years. So it’s a passion project. I spoke at the first HubSpot Inbounds, you
know, their version of TED talks. They did the bold talks. I don’t know if you remember that. I don’t think they do it
anymore.
Speaker 1 – 02:07
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 – 02:08
But I was the first speaker in that series and they asked you to speak on something that wasn’t like your daily grind.
So, you know, the timing worked perfect. And I did a talk on creativity and every Talk I’ve given since then on
creativity has been kind of the most popular thing I’ve done. More popular and more well received than a lot of the
marketing straight marketing talk that I’ve done. So it just was a passion project that shifted into a really well
received concept that I spent 12 years researching and about a year and a half writing. Once I really got down to
putting pen to page and it’s probably one of the most fulfilling things I’ve done, I think.
Speaker 1 – 02:43
Oh, that’s excellent. And that totally makes sense now that you put that out there of so much with what you do in
digital marketing is topical. I mean you’re digging in, it’s research, but a lot of it. Yeah, we look back five years later
and we’re onto entirely different networks or whatever. So yeah, by going here you’ve got something that is a book
for the ages. And before we jumped on, you had in the book outlined something which I hadn’t really given too much
thought to. But the fact that even in academia there’s no standard education for creativity. I mean, you’d think that
someone being an artist or a graphic designer or one of those fields, there’d be creativity 101 or, you know, just
something to give you a structure on how to do it.
Speaker 1 – 03:28
So this is just what you’ve picked up piecemeal and you’ve decided to codify, was that.
Speaker 2 – 03:32
Yeah, I mean, we don’t teach creative process. We will teach someone how to draw or how to design a flyer or a
website or write a poem, but we don’t teach like where ideas come from or how to improve that process. It’s
something we all kind of organically build over our lifetime. The only time that it has happened is the kind of Mad
Men era. BBDO created what we now term brainstorming. They created the original brainstorming process that we
use as the only real creative process anyone can do. And it’s very imperfect and not really useful for individuals
doing on their own. So I wanted something that anyone could use, anyone that thinks they’re creative or not, and
something that can adapt to kind of any creative challenge.
Speaker 2 – 04:16
And that means it has to be flexible, it has to be personal, you have to kind of take the pieces that work for you from
it. And what I arrived at is it’s a set of interventions, it’s how I describe it and it’s interventions in different pieces of
the creative process. Because the creative process is long and there’s lots of inputs and lots of outputs and lots of
steps. Along the way. But if you have a few interventions in your pocket for when it gets slow or hard or just too
tough or too uninspired, then these things can break you out of those hard to reach places and put you back on a
path to more consistent ideas. So it’s, you know, it’s not a science. There’s a lot of science that you can study to learn
kind of what works and what doesn’t.
Speaker 2 – 04:58
It’s very personal. So feel free to, like, take your favorite things from the book and run with them and don’t use the
ones you don’t. But it at the base level, kind of the first principles, it is an active skill. And we treat it pretty much as a
passive skill. Like, I hope good ideas come to me today, or, you know, I hope. I hope if we put enough people in this
meeting yelling ideas at each other that, you know, something, some kind of magic will happen. And that’s very
passive. So making it an intervention concept means you’re making it more active. And there’s a lot of ways to do
that.
Speaker 1 – 05:33
That’s excellent. Yeah, that isn’t it true, like you said, people just pack the people in the room and hope that
something comes out of there. That’s just not a way to do things now. So you have the interventions categorized in
three different sections. Barriers, inspiration and process. And just like my gut would be that you would lead with
inspiration and then, you know, work around the bears. But obviously, you know, what was your thought in
assembling them this way? And how does that. How do they flow?
Speaker 2 – 05:59
It’s really a reverse engineered organization of the book. I started with bad ideas, and that is kind of the ideation
phase. I call that limits in the book because a lot of the ways to get around kind of putting more ideas on the page is
to question your limits and assumptions and. And constraints. And one of the big things we do is just. Just quality
judgment for bad ideas. Inspiration is interesting because inspiration is. Is something that we do typically
individually. And it takes kind of an assessment of how you live your life in a way, because the way I describe it is
brushing up against life. So when we talk about, like, aha moments, I call them happy collisions. It’s really about
putting your expertise up against some life experience.
Speaker 2 – 06:45
Like, one of my favorite examples is the guy who invented the first wheeled suitcase. Like, we used to carry
suitcases around without any wheels, right? Heavy, heavy suitcases. And he worked for a luggage company. He had
a lot of expertise in the luggage realm. So we had that to build on. And then he went on vacation one time and he
was carrying like three or four bags from his family through the airport and he saw a kind of wheeled, industrial,
wheeled luggage cart that a worker was pushing. And just, it snapped in his brain that we should have smaller
wheels on these suitcases so I don’t have to feel the pain of carrying all these suitcases right now. And he made it
happen pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 – 07:23
But, but that’s his expertise brushing up against, you know, he was on vacation in another world, brushing up against
life and asking that question how to make luggage easier. And I think a lot of good ideas come from that. They come
from these unscripted moments in life where you’re experiencing other things. You’re, you’re hanging out with
creative people, you’re consuming interesting media that’s outside of your focus point. You’re traveling, you’re
speaking the language, you, hobbies, anything you can do to kind of introduce yourself to new concepts on a regular
basis. Being in big cities is better for ideas than not. You know, meeting new people is better for coming up with new
ideas than not. That’s a key piece of inspiration. That’s hard to teach, that’s hard to like. You can’t really change your
life on a dime.
Speaker 2 – 08:04
One thing I think you can do is just start paying attention more of the question you’re asking of what the problems
that you work on a regular basis that require creativity are. And I think research, like ongoing research list building is
really one of those skills that a lot of creative thinking thinkers do well and taking research more seriously to kind of
match that up to the places in the world that you can find more inspiration for it.
Speaker 1 – 08:30
Okay, I want to talk to you more about constraints because I was really interested in how you put that together and
what goes into that. But before we do, we just have to take a second. We want to thank Netsuite by Oracle for their
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Speaker 1 – 09:13
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Speaker 1 – 09:52
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we appreciate them supporting the show, bringing you this content. So do go give them a look and we thank them
for their support. So, barriers and constraints, you have them broken down. The list of creative cultural market
policies, technical resource rules. And that was just mind blowing for me in that, you know, throughout my entire
work life, constraints just kind of fall upon you. You know, you’re like doing something and you get hit by one and you
need to figure it out.
Speaker 1 – 10:37
So I was just like, oh, wait a minute, you could like put these in buckets and have a plan before you even come up
against them. So talk to us about the different types of constraints and what gave you the inspiration to segment
them like this.
Speaker 2 – 10:52
I mean, I think I’ve personally been lucky enough to question a lot of assumptions and constraints in my life and
career. I’ve just been given a lot of creative freedom. I’ve made a lot of space for creative freedom for myself. So I
think this is a skill that I’ve inherently learned. But to reverse engineer it and break it down. I’ve had this list of
constraints that I’ve used for quite a while. I defined it a little more for the book. But I mean, one thing I know is when
you’re trying to teach someone something, giving them just a pure blueprint that they can run through, they can
always personalize it and make it their own. But giving them something that’s very easy to start with is important. So
I try to include Those steps throughout the book. And for constraints.
Speaker 2 – 11:28
I really do think if you are given this list of possible constraints for a project, you can practice something that
becomes inherent for a lot of creative professionals, which is, I’ve been given this assignment, I’ve been given this
campaign I have to come up with, or this ad or this commercial we have to shoot. How do we make it stand out?
How do we make it different? How do we make it feel special and surprising? And to do that, it has to be something
new. So what creative professionals naturally learn is to go through their mental Rolodex of what are the things that
people are expecting and how can I question those expectations? And it goes from easy to hard. Like the creative
constraints are easy to question. Like, oh, this should be a 60 second commercial.
Speaker 2 – 12:07
I want to make it a six second commercial. This should be, you know, it should be normal people advertising for this
pharma ad. We’re going to make it black and white and a silent film to make it stand out. Like those are creative
constraints. When you go all the way to the other end of the constraint spectrum, you get into like the actual rules of
law and nature, which most of which, you know, we can’t stop. Gravity, like gravity exists, but maybe you’re Red Bull
and you take the blue into space and you can question that a little bit, Right. So you just go through all these layers
and you ask yourself, what are the constraints on the project? And then you write those constraints down and you
question them. What would happen if we ignored this constraint for this project?
Speaker 2 – 12:42
What would the solution look like? And you can do it with multiple constraints. It’s just a very quick process
intervention to get you started or to get you unstuck. And once you start doing it over time, you’ll start to do it
mentally very quickly, especially for smaller projects. You’ll just do this in your head. You don’t have to write it down
every time. But having this list available is a great shortcut.
Speaker 1 – 13:05
Yeah. And then there’s a. You also have an example in the book talking about Michelangelo and the David and
Goliath sculpture, which I loved. Tell us, can you just throw that out?
Speaker 2 – 13:15
Yeah. I mean, David was Michelangelo’s most important sculpture. It’s really what I mean. He was a great up and
cominging artist in Italy, in Florence, but this sculpture really made him into, you know, someone that we can still talk
about and remember today. So he, they had this stone that had been kind of, I think, three different sculptures and
tried to carve David out of this marble stone that they had commissioned from the city. And basically everyone gave
up on it. They had started blocking it off and really just said the stone didn’t work for the statue because it was too
tall, too skinny. And every sculpture of David and Goliath at that time had like the same visual story where it was
David kind of winning, usually standing on, like, Goliath’s head. Like, you know, very specific, visceral storytelling of
this battle.
Speaker 2 – 14:05
And he focused on David kind of before winning the battle, like a little more of an artistic flair. Goliath is not in the
statue at all. It looks, it looks like a more really well crafted sculpture that becomes a style after this, after he finished
his David sculpture. And the reason is, like, he just took the limits of that block and accepted them and asked kind of,
what can I do if I can’t, if I don’t have the width to show David with Goliath in this sculpture, what would it look like?
So he took a different part of the story and perfected it from there. And it is one of the most famous sculptures ever
done. And I think another piece of this is. It was a really hard challenge.
Speaker 2 – 14:49
Like no other sculpture at the time was willing to take it on because they knew it was just not suited to kind of the.
The existing expectations that they had in their head of what it would look like. So I think, you know, taking risks,
taking on difficult projects and being willing to reconsider your expectations is a big lesson there. And it’s not always
going to mean you’re going to become the most famous artist in the world, but it is mean that you are potentially and
most likely going to create something new and different.
Speaker 1 – 15:15
Okay. And so for inspiration, you talked about collisions. And it’s just funny, I got the idea of more collisions in the
city, but for some reason I had never considered the flip of that of like, so if you’re in a more rural area where things
don’t change, you just don’t have the raw fuel to kind of, you know, unless you go out of your way. But it’s that cultural
change just kind of got to me.
Speaker 2 – 15:38
Yeah. And I mean, it’s, you know, there’s. It doesn’t mean people that live like in the middle of Iowa can’t come up with
good ideas. It just means you’re. You’re taking a more passive. If you accept what’s around you and the inputs that
come to you in life, like, that’s a passive view of creativity. If you seek out culture and interesting people and
Interesting media and travel. And if you put yourself in situations where those things come to you more often, that’s.
You’re setting up a better dynamic and a. You’re setting up more ideas floating around the world that have the
potential to impact kind of the questions you’re asking.
Speaker 1 – 16:12
Yeah, there’s just more coming at you. But now other parts of that for inspiration. You talk about play and incubation.
What’s. What is in there that people should be aware of?
Speaker 2 – 16:22
You don’t. You can’t always take time to come up with a great idea. Right. Especially if you work in marketing
advertising. You know, your deadline is typically days away, if not yesterday at most, maybe it’s like a month or two.
But if you look at some of the best art and campaigns and just creative breakthroughs, typically it happens when
people are allowed to spend more time on a project. So like on the small end of that, you know, I would encourage
people when they’re doing brainstorm meetings, to do at least two brainstorm meetings, giving people time in
between to kind of assess everything that was presented and think about it and actually give their brain a little space
to breathe and consider what other ideas could connect to those concepts. On the.
Speaker 2 – 17:04
On the larger end of that, there’s a Seinfeld joke that I talk about in the book that took him two years to write. He
went back and edited it constantly over two years until he really just perfected it. And that’s someone at the top of
their craft. But it’s also someone that’s willing to let something sit and be considered and come back to in a repeated
way. It’s a couple things going on there. Like your brain will make new connections once it’s been introduced with a
problem and considered and has researched it a bit. But also iteration is key there. So it’s not taking two years
writing a joke and coming back in tears to edit it. It’s coming back every week or a couple times a month and just like
consistently revisiting something, improving it.
Speaker 2 – 17:45
There’s a great anecdote about Ernest Hemingway that he rewrote the end of farewell to arms 39 times before he
kind of settled and thought it was good enough. And that was over a long period of time. It’s like great artists are
willing to give something space to breathe and to revisit and iterate it as much as they can before they put it out into
the world. That’s not always possible. But look for those opportunities to, you know, even if it’s just taking a Second
meeting for a campaign or drafting something, coming back to it the next day, doing that a few times is pretty helpful
to perfect creative process.
Speaker 1 – 18:21
Yeah, that completely makes sense. I get that. And you wrap it up with process. Just what’s the general idea of how
can you optimize your process to make sure you’re, you know, getting the best results you can get?
Speaker 2 – 18:32
Like, the very simplest first principle for creative process is to learn the creative loop. And the creative loop is simply
go from group ideation to solo ideation and back and repeat that loop. So typically starting solo. So if you’re going to
have a brainstorm, have people start on their own, put ideas on a page, put ideas into a spreadsheet, whatever it is,
before you have a group meeting. If you get stuck as an individual working on a creative project, introduce that to
groups, introduce it to a group for feedback, or friends or co workers, or have a group meeting about it for feedback,
and then the exact same thing. If you’re working in a group and getting stuck, let people break off and work
individually. It can, they can also work in small groups.
Speaker 2 – 19:18
That loop of repeating that process is pretty helpful to break through and find better ideas consistently. And that’s
over multiple industries, multiple different disciplines. And it just proves out over time. There’s a great story about
the guy who wrote MacGyver, who wrote the TV series MacGyver, Lee Zlatov. And he just, it was the first TV show.
He was a great TV show writer. It’s the first TV show he’d really struggled with any way whatsoever. And worked
months and months, kept having ideas that were shot down by the studio. And eventually he just paid for a bunch of
his friends, writers to come and do a group brainstorm with him. Paid them in beer, I think free beer. And one of his
friends asked him, he was like, well, what do you have right now? He’s like, I have, I honestly have nothing.
Speaker 2 – 20:06
They were talking about, like, for the lead character, start with who the star of the show is. He’s like, I have nothing.
And this friend said this one sentence that kind of broke the MacGyver thing open. And he said, well, let’s just start
with nothing. Your hero has nothing. And that’s like the genesis of the MacGyver character. He solves problems with
nothing but the things he has, like in a room or on his person. Right? So that is one person struggling alone
introduced a concept to a group, and that group quickly solves something. So that process of going back and forth
is a really key, repeatable one that people can use.
Speaker 1 – 20:38
That’s great. Jim McGarvey, your way out of that. Yeah, that’s right in line with how that runs. I always love asking
authors this because you’ve gone through this journey now of putting it together and structuring it and writing the
whole book now that you’re done. As you look back, how has this changed the way you’ve looked at creativity? Has it
sharpened anything you’ve done? Or is it just you just kind of did a brain dump? All this stuff was there and it hasn’t
changed that much.
Speaker 2 – 21:03
I mean, it’s. I tell you, I mean, the. You can learn more about something, writing a book than anything else, I think,
because you have to take. Even if you’re really good at something, and I have a lot of confidence in my creative skills,
but even if you’re good at something, having to write it down and make it something that’s easily executable,
learnable, adaptable by other people is much more difficult. I think teaching something can be. Teaching it well
someone can run with it and still get value is pretty difficult. And it makes you really defend and expand on your
ideas in a detailed way. And I think I was pleasantly surprised by how well the book’s been received.
Speaker 2 – 21:40
People read it and immediately use concepts from the book and will email me and say, I literally just was the hero at
work today because of this process. Or I immediately solved a problem I’ve been thinking through for a couple
months by doing something from the book. And you hope it’s helpful. You write a book you hope people get value
out of. Feels a little surprising how quickly people get value out of it, which is a very fulfilling kind of end result for
me.
Speaker 1 – 22:07
And then now it makes sense. And you’ll have to tell us about the toolkit you used. But you were living your creative
process as you did it because you shared chapters. And now it hits me. It’s like, oh, you worked up on your own and
then you worked it back out to a group and then you came back and did it on your own. And tell us about the tools of
that, too. How did that go as far as helping your process?
Speaker 2 – 22:28
Yeah, I mean, finding a beta reading solution is very helpful. The one I used is called Help this book. It’s like 30 bucks
a month, pretty affordable, accessible, and it will show you. I like it because this is both data and human feedback,
which is both are important, but it shows you where people get stuck because people can leave comments and
reactions. You ask them to Ask when something’s confusing or slow. Please react to that and comment and let me
know so I can improve those places and not lose readers. But then you’ll notice, like some chapters, the comments
kind of start to dwindle. So that. That’s kind of no comments is not good. You want people to be reacting and
engaging. Right. So you learn, okay. Something. Something is slowing people down in this chapter. So that’s an
important step.
Speaker 2 – 23:11
I think just beta readers and having a good editor. I happen to live with my editor, my partner, Nicole. She’s the really
good writer in the family. But having those resources of those feedback loops is pretty important. I think writing. You
can write a good book in kind of on your own, but I think a great book really requires other people’s feedback to help
you write something that people can get through quickly. Like, I wrote 60,000 words for this, and the book got edited
down to 24,000 words or 25,000 words. So I wanted to make it very short and easy to read. And I think editing. Most
writers will tell you editing is kind of more work than the writing part. And I think, it’s important to have experts or.
Speaker 2 – 23:56
Or people that you’re writing for involved in that process for it to really succeed.
Speaker 1 – 24:00
Yeah. And I. I can totally believe that. That you. You nearly cut half of. Because it’s just so tight and it hits there.
There’s. There’s an economy of words there that just completely nails.
Speaker 2 – 24:11
Yeah. I mean, I can’t. I can’t read long nonfiction books. It’s just not anime usually. And I think a lot of writers struggle
to kind of cut the fluff out of a book. And this, you know, creativity should be fun. It should not be like a homework
assignment should be something that you can, like, be inspired by. And I think inspiration means getting through the
whole thing pretty quickly. And so that was a priority for sure.
Speaker 1 – 24:32
Okay. And I do have to check in with you. You know, longtime listeners want to hear about what’s going on with
Social Fresh. What’s happening over there?
Speaker 2 – 24:40
We took a pause after the pandemic. We did several virtual conferences and in person after the pandemic. And
we’ve been on pause for a little over maybe a year and a half, two years. Our big thing is we’re definitely going to do
another conference. I do not know what it’s going to look like right now. I’m talking to some partners behind the
scenes. We’ve pivoted Social Fresh into an agency. That’s the primary business for Social Fresh now. We’re a digital
marketing agency. We do paid media, we do strategy and research. I really enjoy that work. We were doing that work
beforehand, but now it’s much more on the front burner. And I think I have a new opinion about what a conference
would look like that could help more people.
Speaker 2 – 25:22
And we’re just kind of looking for the right strategic partners to bring that to reality. I don’t know if that’s going to be
next year or the year after, but I love doing conferences. Just like writing a book. It’s a very fulfilling thing. And I, I
think we’re all craving these in person experiences more than ever. Conferences are still not achieving the numbers
that they had back before the pandemic, even today, but it’s much closer than it was. And I think with AI and all the
other trends in the world right now, there’s a lot of people that crave those in person experiences and that’s only
going to increase. So I think it’s a pretty good place for us to invest when the time is right.
Speaker 1 – 25:57
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like you said this, a lot of uncertainty and things changing quickly. It’s a great time. It’d be one of
those classic conferences where you go and people are going to love the, all the meetings outside the sessions, you
know, because they’re going to be able to compare notes on what they’re playing with and where they’re going. Okay,
so as we go out the door, how about a book movie? Something that you’ve seen recently that you’d recommend?
Speaker 2 – 26:18
Yeah, well, of course, buy the Case for more bad ideas. That’s a great book. One of my favorite book series, kind of
science fiction is Murderbot, the Murderbot Diaries and they made a TV show out of it. It came. It really snuck up on
me. I didn’t realize they were making a TV show, but they made a TV show. Apple TV has it out right now. So you can.
I would read the books first. It’s also, I believe the first three or four books are novellas. So they’re very short to get
into. And it’s about, you know, just like a cyborg security bot that is intended to protect people and all of a sudden
can think for itself and chooses to continue to protect people. And it’s just really funny, really sarcastic, good dry
humor. And I, I recommend reading the series and I.
Speaker 2 – 27:08
And watching the TV show.
Speaker 1 – 27:10
Oh, that sounds fantastic. Yes, I will jump on that. Sounds right up my alley.
Speaker 2 – 27:13
So I’m not fully sure if they’re going to pull off the TV show. I am entertained by it. I really love, like the story and the
characters, but the books are totally worth it. So that’s where all right, it’s a hard, it’s a very sarcastic story to tell. I
think the humor is maybe hard to pull up, but I think they’re doing it. So we’ll see. Apple, Apple’s done a good job with
a lot of these sci fi shows recently.
Speaker 1 – 27:33
Half. Yeah, they spare no budget. They definitely swing for the fences. And, and yeah, they’ve got the resources to do
it. So the book is the case. For more bad ideas, you can go to more bad ideas.com Jason’s got it set up there so you
can go and grab yourself a copy. And we would love to hear about what you’ve got going on. If you check it out, you
can sign up for the Marketing Over Coffee text line at 617-812-5494. All right, you can download the book there.
Jason, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 – 28:00
Yeah, thanks for having me, John.
Speaker 1 – 28:02
And that’s going to do it for this week. So until next week, enjoy the coffee.
Speaker 2 – 28:05
You’ve been listening to Marketing Over Coffee. Christopher Penn blogs@christopherspenn.com Read more from
John J. Wall at jw5150.com the marketing over Coffee theme song is called Melo G by Funkmasters and you can
find it at Musically from Mevio or follow the link in our show notes.
